A Laugh in the Dark

Wearing one of his black ‘lo cut’ tank tops, Owens meets Alessandro and me at the building’s entrance. It’s a sunny early June day, the heat of Venetian summers beginning to creep in. He settled on Lido eight years ago, after purchasing the last floor of a white-painted, very ordinary beachfront building not far from the Hotel Excelsior — an area built around the 50s that is now mostly populated by retired locals. A quirky exception among them, Rick Owens spends his summers in this former family house, which he completely renovated, going from orange and turquoise tiles to stainless steel fixtures and window frames, black marble toilets, and home appliances hidden behind mirror walls.

“This place is such a good secret,” he says as we ride up the elevator, with a private door on the apartment. “We’re going to stay here the whole summer because we’re having all of the windows replaced in the house in Paris.” Loud, disco-funky music from the 70s fills the apartment. The view is breathtaking: From where I’m standing, I see only the sea. Tyrone Susman — Owens’ model and muse — abruptly appears from a shiny mirrored door, returning from his workout. Today, the four of us will take a tour of the designer’s favorite Lido spots – the Tempio Votivo, the Jewish Cemetery, and the Nicelli Airport — following a program he emailed me the night before.

Rick Owens

I was so lucky to get this place. There aren’t many buildings around here that overlook the sea. It’s also a miracle that there are no buildings blocking the view. Venice is over there.

Caterina Capelli

Che bello! Did you also renovate the terrace?

Rick Owens

Oh, the whole thing was renovated. Now there’s just basically three rooms: this is the bedroom [music intensifies], the bathroom, the toilet in here. I did the renovations with the architect who designs all my stores. Here’s the gym, and here we have the kitchen [hidden behind folding mirrored doors]. Here’s the other bathroom. Here’s the terrace again. We’re very lucky.

Caterina Capelli

Who designed the furniture?

Rick Owens

I did. Except, no… The chairs are from 1901 — they’re Vienna Secession; they were the dining set for a family in Vienna. Sit in it. It’s so comfortable. They’re so well done.

Caterina Capelli

Where did you find them?

Rick Owens

Oh god, I hunted for them. It took me a long time to find the perfect chairs — I have some here, some in Concordia, and a few in Paris.

Caterina Capelli

Your factory is in Concordia, right?

Rick Owens

Do you know Concordia?

Caterina Capelli

Isn’t it in Emilia Romagna? I’m from Bologna, so it’s nearby. Who designed the lamps?

Rick Owens

Oh. They’re old. They’re called Daphine lamps. I use them because Donald Judd used them.

As Rick Owens gets ready to leave the house in an adjacent room, Alessandro and I wait in the sunbathed living room. I stop and study his library for a while. Libraries are said to offer revelatory insights into the owner’s personality: I feel this might be the case. The collection includes a varied range of titles such as Soul of Venice, Sacred Monster, or Mona Lisa’s Moustache. My attention is immediately drawn to Marcel Duchamp’s artist book, Museum in a box. Tom Sachs’ Tea Ceremony Manual and two copies of Marinetti’s The Futurist Cookbook also appear on the shelves. A vintage tome bears the title ‘Totalitarian art’ on its black spine. I could probably spend an entire day here, trying to decipher Owens’ miscellanea of interests and references through his books. But it’s time to go: a car is waiting for us downstairs.

Caterina Capelli

Have you ever been to Pellestrina? It’s an extra wild, extra narrow island in the southernmost part of Lido.

Rick Owens

Is it where the gay beach is?

Caterina Capelli

I don’t know, actually.

Rick Owens

There is a nude gay beach somewhere.

Caterina Capelli

Perhaps it’s Alberoni?

Rick Owens

I’ve actually never been there… The gay beach. But I think we’ve been to Alberoni.

Caterina Capelli

Children in the back! — I say as we enter the van.

Rick Owens

And behave!

Caterina Capelli

Where are we going first? — I loved the plan you emailed me yesterday.

Rick Owens

The first stop is Tempio Votivo, then the Jewish Cemetery… It closes at 12, but the guardian says she’ll wait until 12.30.

Caterina Capelli

Have you ever been?

Rick Owens

Yea. [The guardian and her family] live there in the cemetery. We did some runway shows here during COVID, and the first one was at Tempio Votivo…

Tyrone Susman

No, the first one was the Casino… That was the second one.

Rick Owens

Oh, right. So, at the Tempio Votivo, [Tyrone] was the first one of the male models. He was wearing little white underwear with a pentagram on the crotch. He walked up the stairs, a scandal broke out… So, Tyrone is basically a symbol of evil at Lido. I’ve never been back since — I wonder if they’ll recognize me…

As we stroll inside the Tempio Votivo — a monumental military ossuary and war memorial commemorating the victims of WWI and WWII — the pair notices an informative panel titled Gethsemane hanging on a wall.

Rick Owens

Oh, Gethsemane! That’s crazy. It is a crazy coincidence. That’s exactly the name of the show we did here. That’s so weird.

Caterina Capelli

Haven’t you seen the panel before?

Rick Owens

No. My Italian is not great… Is there any reason why it’s here? Can you translate it?

Caterina Capelli

It says there are eight olive trees outside here, and they apparently all have the same genetic profile as those in Gethsemane, the garden where Jesus prayed before the crucifixion — they’re 900 years old. Why did you call that show Gethsemane?

Rick Owens

Because it was during COVID — a moment of suspense for everybody, which made me think of the moment of suspense before Christ’s crucifixion and how he prayed with uncertainty.

We head back to the car in awe. “Okay, cemetery, alright,” Owens says to the driver.

Rick Owens

Did you do the interview with Karla Otto, too?

Caterina Capelli

Yes.

Rick Owens

Oh, I like her. I’ve known her for a while.

Caterina Capelli

What made you fall so in love with the Lido that you bought a house here?

Rick Owens

Well, I love Venice. It’s one of the most magical places on the planet. And it was convenient because the factories are in Concordia — it’s a two-hour drive to come to Venice. But Venice is just too intense for me, too dense. One time we went to the beach at the Lido and I fell in love: It’s so quiet and soft compared to Venice.

At the cemetery, we are warmly greeted by the guardian, a blonde lady in her 50s with a strong Venetian accent, who immediately asks for a group photo. The boys are given kippahs (not Rick who’s wearing a hat), and we walk in. The sound of birds singing blends with that of our footsteps crunching in the grass, among the graves. Nature peacefully envelops everything around us.

Caterina Capelli

What do you do when you’re here in Lido?

Rick Owens

Oh we just go to the beach. And I read. All year, I just order books and order books, and have them delivered to Lido. I feel that when I’m here, I’m allowed to just read all of the books I’ve ordered all year.

Caterina Capelli

What do you read?

Rick Owens

Biographies. I used to read more literature in my youth, classical literature, from my father’s library. But then, when I got older, I stopped reading for a while. There were years that I spent absorbing information, but in my 30s, it was all about taking all that information and expressing it — I wasn’t really absorbing as much as before. Now, in my older years, I feel like I gravitate towards biographies of people who were creative: I’m comparing my life [to theirs] and see how they negotiated getting older and declining. Did you see this one? Look in there. [He indicates a marble window that lets light filter inside the tomb dramatically] Is it lit, or is it just the light from behind? Yea, it’s just the light filtering through the alabaster.

Caterina Capelli

So how are you negotiating with time?

Rick Owens

I’m not sure. I’m just conscious of it, and I think of my father a lot. Aging, I feel like he would be the main example, because a lot of my personality comes from him — the good and the bad parts. He studied literature, he studied theology, he studied philosophy. I always felt that he was looking for the most responsible way to think, for the next level of thought in living. But at the end of his life, he started getting bitter and bitter. It freaked me out because I thought: This is somebody who studied all of his life to reach a higher level of understanding, and he’s unhappy; he’s angry. Is that gonna happen to me? I feel like I’m infected by his misanthropy. I sense it in myself. That’s why I’m trying to objectively study myself, my motivations and reactions to things. I have to learn from him because I don’t want to end up like that.

Caterina Capelli

I lost my father two years ago, and I saw the same thing in him; he became obsessed with the idea of dying. I can only imagine how scared one must be when facing death or even just realizing you’re getting older. And I feel like if you don’t use that fear well, then you become the worst version of yourself. But I don’t think it’s a pre-written path — we’re all different, no one is doomed.

Rick Owens

Yes, but I mean. I wonder also if, when you reach a certain age, you understand what’s happening. You become upset: Your body is in a sense of panic because your powers are declining in a very subtle way. You feel under an undefinable threat. You’re in a different kind of state. A friend of mine had a stroke, and the last time I saw him, he was very fragile; he had a fear and vulnerability that I’d never seen in him before. I’d always known him as a powerful, confident person — so it shocked me. Not because he was fragile but because I sensed that he had a fear that I’d never seen before.

Caterina Capelli

In a way, I think growing older also means realizing that your body no longer follows your mind. Your brain remains the same, but your body doesn’t respond as it did.

Rick Owens

Maybe dad didn’t know — ‘cause he was smart — how [aging] would have felt. Maybe he didn’t know that he was susceptible to that threat. Oh wow, this is the great part [of the cemetery]. That little portrait is a mosaic. It’s a 15-year-old boy.

Caterina Capelli

Are you looking for answers to avoid… Becoming too cynical?

Rick Owens

But I am cynical. I’m a total cynical type.

Caterina Capelli

In what ways? What do you think?

Rick Owens

I’m always suspicious. I always assume the worst. And I’m very pessimistic. But I also don’t take things that seriously, so I can laugh at my own pessimism.

Caterina Capelli

That’s a good thing. Right now, you’re one of the most influential people in the fashion industry. In your career, have you ever been afraid that you were going to fail?

Rick Owens

No, not really. Because I always assumed I would. So I never really anticipated very much. It’s all a big surprise.

Caterina Capelli

Even now?

Rick Owens

Even now. It’s like, wow, how did I get here? Isn’t that amazing? It makes me appreciate everything so much because it’s so much more than I ever had the imagination to dream of. Ehm…Should we go this way or that way? It’s almost time to go back, ‘cause then we have to go to the airport. We’re on a strict schedule.

Caterina Capelli

I’m sure you’ve been asked a million times, but how did your journey as a designer start?

Rick Owens

I always wanted to be something poetic, something expressive, something creative. First, I wanted to be an artist, so I went to art school, but I was discouraged by what I thought was the intellectual level I needed to be at. I was taking art theory classes at college — looking back now, it was all just fucking bullshit. But at the time I thought: Oh, I can’t, I’m not smart enough. But I knew how to make things with my hands. I liked fashion, so I learned how to cut patterns. That’s how it began. Now I feel art is such a different thing. In art, you have so much time to develop what you want to do. Anyways. Compared to when I started, fashion became so competitive, with so many designers. It was so different back then; there weren’t that many designers on the calendar at all. Then it turned into this kind of sports competition, like stamina and endurance. Designers have to present something four times a year; they’re asked to maintain a dialogue with people to prove their relevance again and again. In a way, fashion has become more serious than art. It’s a form of communication — and today, it should communicate different things than it did when Saint Laurent or Halston were doing fashion. Let’s go that way. Oh, and this! And there…

He heads towards the entrance of a crypt and begins to descend the stairs to closer inspect the monument from the outside.

Rick Owens

A lot of fashion is about creating a Disneyland — a magic wonderland where nothing bad ever happens, completely oblivious to the discomforts and the unfairness of the world everybody else is living in — which is fine.

Caterina Capelli

People today might need some sort of mental refuge. I think that’s part of why that approach sells.

Rick Owens

Yea. It’s a valid way of doing things. I’m not really criticizing it. I like escapism. But that’s just not what I wanted to do. I’m not saying that what I do is more important at all; it’s just a different option.

Caterina Capelli

It has a different, deeper connection with the present.

Rick Owens

Instead of fantasy, maybe it’s more neo-realism.

Caterina Capelli

Sometimes, the press have called your ‘creatures,’ your models, monsters. In 2008, the New Yorker published a feature about you titled Elegant Monsters.

Rick Owens

I called them monsters first. I used that word first.

Caterina Capelli

Why is this idea of monsters so appealing to you?

Rick Owens

Because we’re all monsters. Everybody is a monster, or everybody feels like a monster — and there’s an element of shame there. Everybody feels shame and self-loathing at some point. And by exposing that — by talking about something that all of us are going through at one time or another — we allow ourselves to expose our vulnerabilities, be more honest, and not be ashamed. If we’re all monsters, then there’s nothing to be ashamed of.

Caterina Capelli

We’re all monsters.

Rick Owens

We’re all flawed. We all have our powers, we all have our weaknesses — I thought it was a nice way to talk about all that.

Caterina Capelli

It’s perfect. But don’t you think that in the media, or even in everyday conversations, the word ‘monster’ can be a bit dehumanizing?

Rick Owens

I just remember the response I got for being a flamboyant, sensitive kid in a very conservative environment. I was greeted with contempt. Contempt — you know — that I was weird. What I ended up thinking was, Okay, you think I’m weird now. I’m gonna show you weird. I’ll give you weird. Okay, now we have to go to the airport. Have you ever been to Isola di San Michele?

Caterina Capelli

Yes.

Rick Owens

I had my mother cremated there.

Caterina Capelli

Is she resting there?

Rick Owens

No, she’s actually in my apartment. Both my parents are. Okay, next: Tell us about your purse.

Caterina Capelli

Oh, I’m happy that you noticed! It’s actually a gift from my dad. He gave it to me when I was ten years old. It was designed by Javier Mariscal, an illustrator and designer I love. I really wanted to wear it because it’s a loving memory. My cardigan too, was designed by my friend Paolina Leccese. Today, I wanted to wear things I consider special.

We arrive at Nicelli Airport — the first one in Lido (and Venice), dating back to 1926. Today it’s a private airport with a rare grass landing field for small aircrafts and helicopters only, a nice restaurant inside, and military bunkers nearby.

Rick Owens

Can we look inside the airport first? ‘Cause we’re going over there, there’s a bunker.

Caterina Capelli

Have you been here before?

Rick Owens

Yea. You know, one year ago, it was Michèle’s 80th birthday, and we had a party here. There’s a warehouse over there, and we had a rave for her birthday all night. It was really fun. The pope came here last year, you know?

Caterina Capelli

Wow.

A black Pilatus plane is landing — so we stop for a while, contemplating it. Who will debark from it? But we don’t have patience or time, so we leave it to the imagination. In the nearby bunker from WWII, which he wants to visit, they’re installing an exhibition called ‘La Dolce Vita at the Lido airport.’

Caterina Capelli

I know it might sound lame but, what does creativity mean to you?

Rick Owens

Well, communication. Communicating with other people is one of the fundamental elements of living. Creativity is also about playing — another important part of life. Some people are more creative than others, but [creativity] is always a way of playing. It’s joy.

Caterina Capelli

I was also curious about… When I sent you an email, you replied to me directly. People in your position usually leave journalists to interface with their team before giving any interviews. What’s your relationship with the press, and the public, in general?

Rick Owens

Was it David [Leclerc] who introduced you? So that’s why — because David speaks to me directly. But even in general, I approach people myself. If I find someone on Instagram who I consider creative or who does interesting things, I just DM them. I say: ‘Hi, I’m Rick Owens, do you want to do a collaboration?’ I usually have to send a video of myself to prove it’s me.

Caterina Capelli

Everything in your work and the way you communicate feels very personal and genuine.

Rick Owens

Good, because that’s the rarest thing in fashion now. Everything is committees, design teams, art directors, and CEOs… It’s crazy. There’s only a few people who get to be real, who actually get to control everything around themselves and be honest: It’s impossible for anybody [in the industry] to be really honest right now.

Caterina Capelli

You’re also among the few fashion brands that didn't sell to large conglomerates.

Rick Owens

I know. But that’s just because I was lucky and found the right people protecting me.

Caterina Capelli

Did you receive offers?

Rick Owens

Yea.

Caterina Capelli

But you decided not to sell.

Rick Owens

I could never. It would be like somebody telling me what I have to think. And I’m just spoiled now. I’m spoiled. Now we’re going to have a coffee at the Excelsior.

Caterina Capelli

What are your plans for the rest of the day?

Rick Owens

We’re going to have lunch and go to the beach. I have to make a few calls first. I have to send a few emails. Then we’ll go to Da Ivo for dinner. We are watching Sirens on TV — a new series on Netflix that we love, with Julian Moore. We love it. Then we’ll get up early and run to the beach. For the next three days, we’re just at the beach all day.

Caterina Capelli

Sounds like a great plan. You know, there are so many interesting islands all around here I’ve never been to. Small, wild islands. Like Certosa.

Rick Owens

We tried to buy one once. It had a concrete bunker on it, which served for military storage. It was the most beautiful building. The little island was great, too — it was like 10 million, maybe less. But it wasn’t actually for sale. I mean, they said it was for sale, but it turns out that somebody was contesting the ownership. So it’s still there. You hear about Venetian complications, and I suspect that has something to do with the building I live in, too. The area hasn’t been developed in… ages. In another country, they would have exploited that and turned it into a lot of condominiums and hotels. I suspect there’s something in the bureaucracy here that makes things very complicated. But thank God!

Caterina Capelli

Do you have a boat?

Rick Owens

No, no, no.

Caterina Capelli

Oh, that would be fun. It’s easy!

Rick Owens

It’s so much easier to have a driver. You know, for the first couple of years, we struggled because nobody had Bluetooth in their boats. We bought a speaker system on wheels so every time we’d take the boat into town we’d take it along. It was a huge speaker, like a big suitcase. We would store it at the Excelsior, they let us keep it there. But then we found a driver with Bluetooth, and everything changed.

Caterina Capelli

What happened to the speaker?

Rick Owens

We just left it there. We used to keep it behind a curtain. So I have no idea — somebody got a free speaker.

Caterina Capelli

What does luxury mean to you?

Rick Owens

That word has come to imply an ostentatious display of status and wealth, right? It’s a difficult word, especially now. I mean, there’s two wars going on, and talking about luxury just seems kind of perverse. But I guess the appropriate answer would be: freedom from oppression and hostility. That would be a great luxury. But on a personal level, I think [it’s] time and space. My personal biggest luxury is that I can take a nap every day — a luxury very few people can afford.

Caterina Capelli

Luxury is a word we generally try to avoid — plus, Marcantonio hates it. At the same time, it’s true that Laguna~B glasses can be considered luxury.

Rick Owens

But it’s glassware — things that everybody needs everyday. Those glasses are not pretentious; they’re very charming, and I love the idea of having less things but very special. That’s why my toilets are marble. I don’t have my own boat, I don’t have a car collection or anything like that. But the few things I have, I want them to be special. Toilets and salt shakers and silverware and glasses. Those are real luxuries.

Caterina Capelli

Laguna~B launched this magazine six months ago. As we approach to evolve it into print, the burning question is how to become relevant in the present media landscape. What’s relevant in contemporary cultural discourse?

Rick Owens

Have you seen Fashion Neurosis, [the video podcast] by Bella Freud? That is so relevant. It’s one of the most wonderful contributions to the fashion world I’ve seen in decades. Bella has introduced just the most elegant, thoughtful, gentle format. Her personality is so nurturing, and warm, and safe. It’s so positive and calming. And everybody that she talks to are people that she has a genuine connection to. The questions she asks are simple but profound. I think it’s the best thing that’s happened in fashion in a long time.

Caterina Capelli

I’m glad you mentioned Bella Freud – as I was about to quote your interview with her, where you say something really interesting: How elegant real transgression is. Can you share an example of elegant transgression?

Rick Owens

Was it actually in the interview? [It was not, as it turns out] I actually wrote that when I was describing a performance artist, Ron Athey, who dealt with blood rituals in his work. He emerged during the AIDS crisis in L.A. Him and other performance artists of the time were expressing their rage with their bodies. What I said is he shows how elegant transgression can be: he did rituals that were very elegant but were also very violent and very moving. And desperate. There was a real sense of urgency. When you’re cutting yourself open in front of people, that is an expression of urgency.

Caterina Capelli

Fascinating.

Rick Owens

The Mayans cutting up hearts in the temples, bloodletting in Victorian times, and then during COVID, all the blood tests we had to take over and over again. Body modifications and tattooing were blood rituals, too – and one of the few ways people could reclaim their bodies. Blood rituals are timeless. [He says this last part while chewing an olive.]

Caterina Capelli

As I understand, your idea of transgression has to do with how you intervene on your own body.

Rick Owens

I use transgression just because the oppressive forces of the world take themselves so seriously that you just have to laugh. They’re so prissy and prim and squeamish. I use pissing a lot. One of the first images I did was of myself pissing into my own mouth. Because it is such a primitive, simplistic, primal, fuck you.

Caterina Capelli

Another iconic image printed on t-shirts showed you with a gun in your mouth.

Rick Owens

Illustrating death is a way of processing it. It’s another classical trope: People always process their fears of death by confronting it and familiarizing with it. That’s what action movies are about. They’re about threat and the excitement of danger, something that everybody feels.

Caterina Capelli

Every episode of this series needs a narrowly defining title: Karla Otto was ‘The PR Queen,’ followed by ‘The Contemporary Chef,’ and so on. What should I call you? Any suggestions?

Rick Owens

The cemetery queen! [He laughs] Wait, what do I call myself?

Caterina Capelli

I know you’re a fashion designer, but it feels really limited to call you just that– you’re so much more.

Rick Owens

Mh. I don’t know – I’ll let you do it. I’m too lazy.

Caterina Capelli

It’s difficult with people who are multi-hyphenated like you. Perhaps I made a mistake when I decided to title the interviews with such rigid labels.

Rick Owens

I don’t mind being reduced to a stereotype or being summarized. I do it all the time; everybody does it. People bristle at not having all of their subtle nuances addressed, but it’s okay. Summarize me! Simplify me!